原标题：陆慷：外交部美大司司长陆慷接受加拿大《环球邮报》专访
[9月3日，美大司司长陆慷接受加拿大《环球邮报》（The Globe and Mail）驻京分社社长万德山（Nathan VanderKlippe）的英文专访。点此阅读英文实录，中译文如下：]
万德山：今年是中国和加拿大建立外交关系50周年。我想知道，回顾过去，你认为中加关系取得了哪些主要成就？加拿大对中国有哪些贡献？
陆慷：今年不仅是中加建交50周年，也是中加两国建立战略伙伴关系15周年。回顾过去50年，我认为大多数时间里双方在中加关系的很多方面都取得了巨大进展。比如，政治领域，在新冠肺炎疫情发生前，两国高层交往密切，甚至是定期性的。双方建立了30多个高级别政府间合作机制，涵盖两国间大多数合作领域。经贸领域，中国一直稳居加第二大贸易伙伴、第二大进口来源地和第二大出口市场地位，中加双边货物贸易额比建交时增长了400多倍，这是很重要的成就。
同样，两国人员往来规模也比建交时显著扩大，疫情前两国双向人员往来每年超过150万人次，有近100万加公民来华。这些都是两国关系实实在在的发展成就。我个人认为，最重要的是，双方能够找到推动中加关系发展的一种行为模式或者说方式，那就是相互尊重、互利共赢。这一点很好地解释了，为什么在过去50年的大多数时间里，尽管国际风云变幻，中加各自国内形势也在不断变化，中加关系仍然能取得快速发展，并为两国人民带来广泛福祉。
外交部美大司司长陆慷万德山：本届加拿大政府上台时曾寻求同中国建立一个更广泛的双边关系。两国启动了双边自贸协定探索性讨论，并在科研等诸多领域签署合作协议。我想知道，中国政府是否仍然认为上述目标值得推进，或者说已被搁置？
陆慷：四、五年前，当中加政府开始规划两国合作的美好未来，包括你刚才提及的那些领域，我们相信这些合作对两国人民和各界都是有益的。我可以告诉你的是，现在的情况依旧如此，中加合作依然十分重要。新冠肺炎疫情让我们两国都面临新的挑战，面临确保经济恢复和可持续发展的迫切任务。我们应确保各自人民能够在疫情后过上更好的生活。因此，尽管我们面临挑战，但也拥有很好的机遇去落实双方曾经达成的共识。但坦率地说，所有合作都需要一个合适的氛围。我们需要跨越我们面临的障碍。这一障碍就是加拿大政府在孟晚舟事件上所犯的错误，这是一起严重的政治事件。
万德山：现在，你是否认为孟晚舟案阻碍了所有其他（加中）双边事务，或者双方仍有可能就其他双边事务开展合作？
陆慷：在孟晚舟事件上，中国政府和中国人民受到不公正对待，这激起广大中国人民的强烈愤慨。我们希望加拿大政府真正严肃地妥善处理此事，为确保两国合作顺利推进创造条件。
万德山：在孟晚舟仍然滞留加拿大的情况下，（加中）是否有可能开展其他合作？
陆慷：两年来，中加两国政府在不同层级保持着外交渠道沟通。同时，从促进两国人民以及世界人民的共同利益出发，双方开展了一些合作。但我要指出，孟晚舟事件会对加拿大政府以及中加双边关系带来更多机会成本。正如我此前所说，如果没有发生孟晚舟事件，中加双方在很多领域都有巨大潜力可以挖掘、有很多机遇值得把握，然而孟晚舟事件使得双方推进合作失去了合适的氛围。
万德山：加拿大同美国引渡条约始于1971年，有近50年的历史。在此背景下，美国请求加拿大在某个特定人士抵加时对其予以逮捕，这是一个合法请求。根据加美引渡条约，加方需要采取行动。在你看来，加拿大政府应该怎么做？加拿大政府如果不像已经发生的那样采取行动，在其法律制度下又该如何处理上述引渡请求？因为，在人们看来，这并不像是一个政治阴谋，而是加拿大政府依法办事。
陆慷：你知道美国政府同多少个国家签订了双边引渡条约吗？
万德山：很多。
陆慷：非常多，有111个国家。你知道在加拿大政府之前，美国政府向多少个国家的政府提出过引渡孟晚舟女士的请求吗？有数十个。实际上，我们也注意到，加政府官员公开表示，加方受到加美双边引渡条约的法律约束。但是，我认为，这其中至少有三个真相，加拿大政府应该向加拿大人民告知。
首先，当加拿大政府决定拘押一位无辜的中国公民孟晚舟时，她究竟违反了加拿大哪一条法律？时至今日，她被拘押一年多来，我们仍然没有得到加方的回答，无论是公开渠道还是双边渠道。
其次，正如我所说，美国同111个国家签有双边引渡条约，同时美方也向数十个其他国家政府提出拘押孟晚舟的要求。但其他国家的政府没有理会这个荒谬想法，直到孟晚舟女士踏足加拿大，为什么加拿大政府成了这唯一的一个？
第三，尽管我们认为这不是一个司法问题，而是一起政治事件，但我们尊重孟晚舟女士和华为公司希望通过走加拿大法律程序解决问题的愿望。针对案件可能涉及滥用程序问题，孟女士的律师团队要求披露一些必要的文件，但却被加拿大政府和加联邦法院拒绝。我认为，加拿大政府应该向加民众清楚告知整个事件的全貌，而不是误导他们。我希望加拿大政府能就上述三个问题作出回答。
万德山：我知道，孟晚舟在去加拿大前曾到访过其他一些同美国有引渡条约的国家，而她在当地并没有被捕。但我不了解，美国曾向你所说的数十个国家提出过引渡请求，包括孟晚舟去过的一些国家。
陆慷：是的，包括孟晚舟去过的一些国家。当然，这是因为美国人知道孟晚舟会去那些国家，其中有一些是美国盟友，而且同美国签有双边引渡条约。
万德山：这一点之前没有被披露过。你能告诉我这一信息的来源吗？
陆慷：这就是我刚才所说，加拿大政府应向加民众告知事件的全貌。
万德山：我认为，当其他国家，尤其是长期同中国打交道的加拿大人在观察加中关系时，他们可能会想到：加拿大多年前在中国需要的时候对华出口小麦，也曾帮助中国培训法官、政府官员等，但是中国却因为一件事就抛弃了同加拿大50年来总体良好的双边关系。为什么中国政府愿意并且快速放弃了这么多年来（加拿大）的善意？
陆慷：首先，我不同意你关于中国抛弃了同加拿大人民之间长期友谊的说法。你也许注意到，去年在我们庆祝中华人民共和国成立70周年之际，中国政府历史上首次向外籍人士集中颁发友谊勋章，当时只有六位外籍人士获此殊荣。这些外籍人士都是我们熟知的好朋友，其中就包括一位加拿大公民。
万德山：伊莎白·柯鲁克（Isabel Crook）。
陆慷：是的，她是一位加拿大公民。我不知道你当时是否感到有些意外，我的一些朋友的确向我表示对此感到意外，因为当时所有人都知道中加关系因孟晚舟事件正处于低谷。即便在这种情况下，习近平主席还是向一位加拿大公民颁授如此珍贵的勋章。从这一点就可以看出，中国政府和中国人民并没有离弃加拿大人民。因此我不能同意你的说法。我们仍然珍视中加传统友谊。今天是世界反法西斯战争胜利75周年纪念日。回顾当年历史，我们同加拿大也有过很好的合作，得到加拿大的宝贵支持。在中国，人们谈到加拿大时都会忆及白求恩大夫，这是植根于我们记忆中的。这一点毫无疑问。我要指出的是，本届加拿大政府在孟晚舟事件上的做法是完全错误的，破坏了中加两国深化合作、更好造福两国人民所需的必要氛围。
万德山：让我们先把政府放一放，谈谈两国人文和商业交往。假设你现在是一名加拿大旅行者，除了新冠肺炎疫情这个明显的阻碍，如果人们发现一起政治事件就可能对两国贸易，甚至是对在华生活的加拿大人的人身安全造成重大影响，加商界人士怎么会有信心在华经商或是同中国打交道？这不仅是加拿大遇到的问题，澳大利亚面临同样的处境，其他国家同中国也存在一些政治争端。在中国经常针对政治问题采取经济报复措施的情况下，这些国家的商界人士如何相信中国会成为他们的可靠伙伴？
陆慷：我注意到你提出的这些问题，其他人也提出过一些问题。但是，如果注意观察（中加）双边贸易总体发展情况，我想人们就不需要担心了。当然，在两国经济关系中，双方都可能牵扯到一些争端。这时候，就可以依照世贸组织（WTO）规则处理， 看看对方是否违反了其世贸组织义务或承诺。如果没有违反世贸组织规则， 那可能就是某种商业或贸易纠纷，可以按照适当的程序加以处理。我也不认为，外国来华人士需要担心其人身安全问题。正如我说的，在新冠肺炎疫情发生前，每年有近100万加拿大人来华。我并没有听说，他们在中国旅行期间担心自身安全。我注意到，一些媒体报道对中国提出各种指控，但这些报道并没有向加拿大民众提供真实的情况，而是有选择地突出某些问题，试图捏造故事、无中生有。我想告诉你，并通过你向加拿大民众传递的信息是，中国奉行开放的发展战略。过去40年来，我们从国内改革和对外开放中获得巨大收益，中国没有理由改变这一道路。我们依然认为，这不仅符合中国和中国人民的利益，也符合世界人民的利益。
万德山：过去五六年间，加拿大曾两次逮捕中国公民，因为美国向有关中国公民发出了逮捕令，并向加方提出引渡请求。在这两起引渡案中，均有两名加拿大公民被中方逮捕，引起广泛关注。这被称为“人质外交”，遭到广泛渲染和批评。“人质外交”要达到什么目标？中国为什么会这么做？
陆慷：我担任外交部发言人时，曾多次回答这一问题。你可以查阅有关记者会记录。至于你提到的加拿大公民，我理解你指的是康明凯（Michael Kovrig）、迈克尔（Michael Spavor）。
万德山：是的，还包括此前的凯文·高夫妇（Kevin & Julia Garrat）。
陆慷：中方已经公开讲明他们违反了中国的哪一条法律，一切都是公开的、透明的。但关于孟晚舟事件，我一直在问这个问题：孟晚舟女士究竟违反了加拿大哪一条法律？没有。所以你不能将这两件事放在一起比较。一方面，有关加拿大公民违反了中国法律。另一方面，孟晚舟女士是无辜的。加方也无法解释孟女士违反了哪一条法律。我认为将这两件事放在一起比较是不公正的，更不必说所谓“人质外交”。
万德山：但康明凯、迈克尔的确被扣为人质了。孟晚舟于2018年12月1日被加方逮捕，康明凯、迈克尔于12月10日在中国两座城市被分别逮捕。难道这纯属巧合？
陆慷：我们已经讲得很清楚，中国有关部门也已表明，拘押康明凯、迈克尔的所有程序都是透明的。
万德山：但有个时间问题。如果他们不是人质，为什么他们在孟晚舟事件后不久就被捕了呢？
陆慷：事情确实发生了，这就是我能告诉你的。你不能把所有事情都联系到一起。中加之间每天都在发生一些事情。如果你试图把所有事情都联系到一起，当然会有一些所谓的发现
万德山：王毅国务委员和商鹏飞外长日前在罗马会晤，我们从加方听到一些信息，但并没有从中方听到。所以我想了解，加中双方是否就康明凯、迈克尔领事探视问题达成共识？加方领事官员自今年1月以来就未能对康、迈进行领事探视，他们的领事探视何时能够恢复？中方同意作出什么安排？
陆慷：两国外长确实就上述问题交换了意见。我不知道为什么加拿大政府没有告诉公众或媒体中方的答复。实际上，中国外交部和加驻华使馆在北京也多次讨论过这一问题。加驻华使馆对现实非常清楚。康明凯、迈克尔的合法正当权益从被拘押伊始就得到了保障，包括加驻华使馆对二人进行领事探视的权利。但新冠肺炎疫情发生后，情况有了一些变化。疫情对我们日常生活的方方面面都产生了影响。为保障监狱设施安全和在押人员健康，我们采取了一些额外防疫措施，这是暂停领事探视的确切原因，并非针对康、迈或加拿大公民，而是针对所有涉及此类案件的在押人员。
万德山：曾在中国国际电视台（CGTN） 工作的澳大利亚籍公民成蕾近日已被中方拘押，澳大利亚政府对她进行了领事探视。为什么加拿大政府不能对加公民进行领事探视？
陆慷：你可以去向加拿大政府核实。中方不仅给予康明凯、迈克尔额外的待遇，而且作出特殊努力照顾了康、迈家人的请求和关切，比如确保康、迈同其家人的联系。中方尽最大努力做出许多安排，有些甚至是在新冠肺炎疫情期间。我不知道你是否了解这些安排。比如，当中方了解到康明凯的父亲健康状况恶化后，作了特殊努力，破例安排康同他的父亲通电话。我不知道为什么加方对这件事只字不提。
万德山：加政府没有宣传，但是《环球邮报》报道了此事。我曾同他们的家人谈起过这次通话。在前不久加中外长会晤期间，中国外长是否同意恢复加方对有关加公民进行领事探视？
陆慷：首先，王毅国务委员阐述了中方在有关领事探视问题上的立场。其次，王毅国务委员指出，我们两国政府的领事沟通渠道是畅通的，双方可以开展相关对话。
万德山：你认为领事探视何时能够恢复？加方注意到中国在控制疫情方面取得了显著成功。我们看到中国本土已经很多天没有新增病例。在此背景下，加民众很难理解为什么加领事官员仍然无法对康明凯和迈克尔进行探视。
陆慷：必须指出，狱管场所环境特殊，承受不起任何一点意外或者一起病例。为了做好防护，你知道需要花费多少资源和努力？军事基地以及其他特殊场所同样也是如此。这不是普通的公众场所。
万德山：我理解，但最近连学校都开学了。
陆慷：是的，但也要采取特殊安排和防控措施。
万德山：我认为加拿大政府也愿意考虑其他探视选项。
陆慷：中方从未说过拒绝加方的领事探视申请。中方始终表示，即便在疫情期间，我们仍从人道主义出发，全力保障两位加拿大公民的合法权益和需求，保障加方有关合法权利。相信加方也能理解，疫情期间不得不采取一些特殊的措施。比如在加拿大，即便你们的病例数不多，但生活也远未恢复正常。
万德山：是的，我们和美国的边界仍然处于关闭状态。过去一年来，加拿大和中国可以开展合作的一个领域是在加拿大试验中国康希诺公司研发的新冠病毒疫苗。加拿大国家研究理事会同康希诺公司签署了在加开展试验的协议，加方也已批准相关合作。但是康希诺公司未能获得向加出口疫苗的许可。为什么没有获得许可？
陆慷：疫苗研发和使用对抗击新冠肺炎疫情十分重要。如你所知，中国政府从最高层面已承诺致力于开展疫苗研发国际合作。习近平主席本人宣布，中方致力于疫苗研发的国际合作，将为疫苗在发展中国家的可及性和可负担性作出贡献。关于你提到的具体问题，也许你也注意到康希诺公司前不久发布了声明。我不太了解问题的具体细节。如你所知，中国政府同域内外国家都开展了疫苗国际合作。因此，必须进一步了解康希诺公司和加拿大国家研究理事会探讨合作的具体情况。目前只是合作尚未取得实际进展，这不应引起大家的担心或进行政治化炒作。
万德山：这是对加拿大的惩罚吗？目前加中关系正处于困难时期，而疫苗试验合作未能实施。加国内自然会认为这是中方对加方的又一次惩罚。
陆慷：中加两国企业之间的合作或潜在合作每天都在进行。如果真如加政府或加国内一些人认为的那样，是中方通过有意阻拦两国在所有领域的合作来对加方进行所谓惩罚的话，这样的观点是站不住脚的。疫情发生以来，中方在今年一季度非常困难的时刻收到了来自加政府和社会宝贵的医疗物资支持。当中方度过最艰难时刻，而加方亟需帮助时，中方向加方提供了双倍的医疗物资援助。如果真如你所说的那样中方在惩罚加拿大的话，你如何解释中方没有停止这些抗疫合作呢？我可以告诉你的另一件事是，就在一两个月前，也是在疫情期间，中国、加拿大和欧盟仍然在气候变化、可持续发展领域开展部长级合作。因此，我希望加拿大政府向加拿大社会展示中加关系的全貌。
万德山：但是这些疫苗无法被出口到加拿大的具体原因是什么？
陆慷：正如我所说，这只是一个中国企业和一个加拿大机构之间开展合作的一次尝试，不论成功与否，这样的事每天都在发生。
万德山：刚才我们讨论了孟晚舟事件。她在加拿大的引渡程序正在进行。你问她犯了加拿大的什么罪。她并未被指控在加拿大犯罪，而是被指控在美国犯罪。加拿大法院审理了孟晚舟案“双重犯罪”问题，驳回了孟晚舟的抗辩理由，同意引渡程序继续进行。是否引渡实际上是由加拿大法院考虑的。引渡程序在加拿大可能旷日持久。也许会提出上诉。引渡程序可能需要数年。历史上，美方向加方提出引渡请求的案件中，有80%至90%的被请求引渡人均会完成引渡程序，最终被引渡至美国。如果孟晚舟被引渡至美国，中国将会对加拿大作何反应？
陆慷：我们已经跟加方讲得很清楚了，孟晚舟事件不是司法案件，而是政治事件。美国政府利用其国家力量打压那些成功、有竞争力的公司。这是阿尔斯通公司有关经历的翻版。不幸的是，在这场肮脏的游戏中，加拿大政府是美国政府的唯一帮凶。孟晚舟事件当然成了中加两国之间的严重障碍。中国政府和中国人民当然有权以任何形式维护自身的合法正当权益。
万德山：加中关系恶化已经两年了。如果孟晚舟被引渡至美国，（加中关系）还会发生什么事情？
陆慷：我不会就此作出预断，我们强烈希望事情不要走到那一步。
万德山：我们注意到加中关系正在经历困难时期。我们注意到中澳关系也在经历困难。这个星期我们注意到王毅国务委员对捷克发表了威胁言论，称捷克参议长将会为其访台付出沉重代价。中国外交政策的目标是让其他国家都害怕中国吗？
陆慷：这绝不是我们的（外交）政策。这也不是中国外交的全部图景。我认为人们需要记住，如果你想领略中国外交的真正图景，你需要记住谁是国际社会的大多数。你需要记住联合国有193个成员国。请不要只把注意力放在少数国家身上。即使回顾中国同这些少数国家的关系，可能双边关系中存在一些个案。但中国同这些国家双边关系重回正轨的最重要驱动力，是双方是否坚持了相互尊重的基本准则，是否严格遵守了《联合国宪章》宗旨和精神。这是最重要的。我知道，聚焦每一起具体个案时，可能会显得双边关系遇到了困难，但你需要关注的是国际社会的真正反应。
万德山：中国同其他国家存在一系列争端。比如，中国同日本关于领土的争端，中国同挪威关于诺贝尔奖的争端，中国同韩国关于萨德导弹系统的争端，中国同澳大利亚涉及澳方呼吁就新冠肺炎病毒开展独立审议等问题的争端，以及中加之间的孟晚舟事件。但是，萨德系统还是安装了，诺贝尔奖颁给了刘晓波，日本没有改变其在领土争议问题上的立场，澳大利亚继续推动开展独立审议以及一些其他措施。就加拿大而言，孟晚舟继续接受引渡程序。在上面这些例子中，没有一个国家因为中国采取的报复措施而改变其行动。那么，为什么中国继续采取这种看上去并无效果的策略？
陆慷：首先，我要指出，不单单是中国，包括美国、加拿大在内的国家都牵扯到同其他国家这样或那样的争端。这是普遍存在的。其次，我认为，包括加拿大在内的各国都有权维护自身正当权益，尤其是国家主权、领土完整等涉及自身核心正当权益的问题。这是国际社会公认的。不要指望中国会在诸如台湾、领土完整等问题上保持沉默。这对任何国家来说都是不可能的，当然也包括中国。
万德山：采取行动是为了达成某种目标。在前面提到的例子中，中国的行动均没有取得效果。如果禁止加拿大对华农产品出口不能对加产生影响，中国为什么还要这样做？
陆慷：总体而言，中国外交为国家发展和国际合作作出了积极贡献。当然，我们也希望一切都是完美的，所有国家总是和谐共处。当今世界的现实并非如此，但我们仍在争取实现这种状态。这就是为什么中国外交坚持通过双边渠道开展真诚对话。同时，我们总会遇到一些对象，他们不愿开展对话，而是诉诸“麦克风外交”，中加之间的情况就是这样。中方一贯认为，建设性对话是解决争端和悬而未决问题的一种更有效途径，但是“一个巴掌拍不响”，这需要双方共同努力。
万德山：你认为，其他国家应该如何看待加中之间过去两年来的争端？你是否认为他们应该将其视作对采取激怒中国行动的一种警告？他们应该从中就同中国打交道汲取什么经验？
陆慷：不要帮助错误的人做错误的事！这是他们应该首先汲取的经验。正如我此前说的，加拿大成为第一个也是唯一一个在孟晚舟事件上接受、同意并执行美方要求的国家。
万德山：我记得孟晚舟曾到访过法国、德国、新加坡等一些国家。
陆慷：我告诉过你，有数十个国家。在这些国家中，很多是美国的盟友。他们中大多数同美国签有双边引渡条约，他们都有所谓法律上的对美引渡义务。
万德山：你指的是孟晚舟在2018年12月1日之前两、三个月期间的旅行？美国向这些国家提出过引渡请求？
陆慷：实际上，美国针对华为和孟晚舟女士本人的政治阴谋并非是在那两、三个月内制定的。美国向其很多盟友都提出过引渡请求，但是没有一个国家接受这个肮脏的交易。
万德山：你说的是，当孟晚舟到处旅行时，美国向她曾经到访的国家提出过引渡请求，对吗？
陆慷：对。
万德山：这些国家并没有对引渡请求作出回应？
陆慷：对。
万德山：只有加拿大做了？
陆慷：对。
万德山：我想再谈谈康明凯和迈克尔。为什么不干脆释放二人？对中方而言，释放二人难道不是更有利吗？
陆慷：你提到的两人是在中国法律制度下被依法逮捕的。中国同样是法治国家。你不能说，法律制度是灵活的。即便加拿大是这样，中国也不是这样。
万德山：如果孟晚舟被加拿大法院释放。
陆慷：我们希望这会很快发生，越早越好。
万德山：如果是这样，康明凯和迈克尔会发生什么？
陆慷：正如我说过的，他们会在中国法律框架下得到妥善处理。
万德山：所以，即使孟晚舟在加拿大获释，也无法保证康明凯、迈克尔会在中国获释？
陆慷：中方从一开始就明明白白告诉加拿大民众，这两件事性质完全不同，没有理由将二者联系起来。
万德山：这并不是加拿大政府所理解的。
陆慷：这就是加拿大政府没有告知加拿大民众的情况。
万德山：加拿大政府一直就此欺骗加拿大民众？
陆慷：这是你说的。
万德山：我想问一个更宏观的问题。我们正在进入“新冷战”吗？
陆慷：我们不喜欢这个词。
万德山：那你会用什么词？
陆慷：世界正在发生巨变。中方坚信，国际社会绝大多数成员都不愿重回冷战。冷战结束以来，全球化持续发展，几乎所有国家和人民都从中受益良多，国际合作仍有很大潜力。我们为什么要重回冷战或重拾冷战思维？那样只会造成国家和人民之间的对立。这也许符合一小撮政客的利益，但却以国际社会大多数成员的利益为代价。
万德山：难道中方没有在准备冷战吗？中国政府出台的《中国制造2025》《中国标准2035》以及“双循环”新发展格局等发展战略都旨在增加自主程度。中方是否也在采取脱钩战略以应对冷战？
陆慷：任何国家，尤其是像美国、加拿大这样大国的政府，都会为促进本国产业和经济的未来发展制定一些规划。中方也是如此。如果你认真阅读刚才提到的那些政策文件，你会发现其中没有任何一个章节写到中国限制开展国际合作。这些文件规定的标准和程序不仅适用于外国企业，对中国本土企业同样适用。中方也许在发布这些文件时已经尽力向外界作了解释和说明，但更重要的是，真正关心中国发展和政策的人应该认真读一读这些文件，而不是人云亦云。
万德山：对其他更小一点的国家，比如加拿大来说，当他们看到中国的发展战略更加内顾和致力于自给自足时，他们会质疑是否有必要制定扩大同中国贸易和商业往来的政策。
陆慷：你如何得出中国的政策致力于自给自足这一结论？
万德山：很显然，《中国制造2025》战略旨在提高部分领域的自主化程度，这也是“双循环”战略的一部分。
陆慷：你能给我举个例子说明《中国制造2025》中的哪一个条款让你得出中国致力于自给自足的结论？
万德山：我只是听到有这样的讨论提到在一些重要科技产品中，中国的供应商要达到一定的比例。
陆慷：如果你仔细看其他国家发布的政策，其中都会有对重点产业支持的内容。问题的关键在于，这些措施是否违反该国在世贸组织框架内作出的承诺。如果违反这些承诺，就构成了重大的政策改变。如果没有违反这些承诺，那就只是该国政府对其国内重点市场或产业发展的支持，仅此而已。
万德山：我想问另一个更宏观的问题。我们看到美国对多边机构的态度发生了显著变化，对世界卫生组织采取了激进的措施。疫情全球大流行给世界带来巨变。你认为这次疫情会如何改变中国在世界上的角色？
陆慷：我无法替其他国家发表（关于中国作用的）评论。就中方而言，我们坚定致力于维护多边主义，维护以联合国为核心的多边框架，维护《联合国宪章》这一获得国际社会最广泛支持的国际协议。我们希望国际社会其他成员都如此。只有这样，我们才能开展更多国际合作。当然，随着中国的发展，我们愿在后疫情时代为国际社会做出更多贡献。
万德山：过去一年半来，加拿大国内涉华民意越来越负面。不仅在加拿大，在中国的其他重要贸易伙伴国也是如此。我们注意到德国、美国、英国、法国国内的民调显示，这些国家民众的对华好感度急剧下降。中国政府是否认为这是个问题？是否愿采取一些措施来改变？
陆慷：从中国自身对外开放40多年来的经验来讲，我们始终认真倾听外界的意见。现在依然如此。如果是建设性的意见和建议，中国政府随时愿意听取。这有助于我们更好服务中国人民，也有助于我们更好开展国际合作。这没有问题。但我们必须注意的是，民意调查的不同设计和结构会带来完全不同的意见和结果。比如，一份关于各国政府获得国民支持的外国民调显示，中国共产党领导的中国政府的支持率最高。我们欢迎建设性意见。回顾过去40多年，虽然中国的发展道路同其他国家不同，发展过程中也会面临挑战甚至困难，但不可否认的是，总体上这是一条成功的发展道路，它帮助绝大多数中国人过得更好，让中国得以参与全球化和融入世界经济。当然，我们并不完美，愿随时听取建设性意见，帮助我们在国内和国际交往中都做得更好。
万德山：我认为，民意就是民众的看法，是会产生实际影响的。它可以影响其他国家在中国贸易、投资等问题上的态度，所以它是重要的，是吗？
陆慷：是的。
万德山：中国的一些政策，包括对待其他国家的方式，甚至是中国处理国内问题的政策，因为在很多国家，他们对中国的对内政策，不论是新疆还是香港正在发生的事情是存在关切的。中国是否担心，这些政策导致自己在国境外的行动面临一个更加困难的环境？
陆慷：我必须先纠正你。并不是很多国家就你所提到的新疆等中国内政问题表达关切。如果你关注（国际社会）在日内瓦或纽约的投票情况，就会发现只有一小撮国家表达了他们所谓的关切。你提的问题很好。那么，有没有中国通过倾听或与外界互动，以改进和完善中国国内政策的情况呢？我可以给你举个例子，那就是中国提出的一个国际公共产品，共建“一带一路”倡议。如你所知，当初中方提出这个倡议时，实际上很多国家只是十分好奇，并没有加入其中。我们也听到一些声音，包括其中有一些建设性的意见。例如，中国同其他国家的合作应该更多注重绿色发展，保持对环境友好。如果你仔细阅读在北京举行的第二届“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛期间的有关声明，就会发现这些层面的建设性意见已经被纳入我们的政策。这只是中国始终愿意倾听外界意见并不断自我完善的一个例证，我们一直以来都是这样做的。
万德山：过去几年间，一直有一些议题让其他国家不得不在中国和美国之间选边站队。比如在华为5G问题上，美国的态度非常坚决，中国也是如此。现在类似的情况又出现在抖音国际版（TikTok） 等其他一些问题上。我想知道你的观点是什么？对加拿大这样的国家来说，当面对5G问题时，如果加方担心中方将来会再次因为政治争端而给加制造经济问题的话，那么加方有什么理由来选择中方？
陆慷：中方的政策是，我们从不强迫其他国家在中国和与中国有争端的国家之间选边站队。同时，我们认为，每个主权国家政府都有权依据自身政策作出独立决定。我无法替其他国家表态，但我认为这样的选择并不难做，理应选择《联合国宪章》宗旨和原则，选择站在国际社会绝大多数成员一边，选择国际关系基本准则。多边机制下的投票结果清楚展示了这一点，你可以自己去看一看，这并不难。
万德山：你是说绝大多数联合国成员国都投票支持中国？
陆慷：他们投票支持的是坚持和维护《联合国宪章》宗旨和原则。
万德山：在加拿大和其他一些国家，有人正在讨论抵制2022年北京冬奥会。在中国将两名加拿大公民扣为人质的情况下，为什么加拿大不能抵制北京冬奥会？为什么加拿大运动员还要来华参加北京冬奥会？
陆慷：正如我刚才所讲，国与国之间总是会发生一些事情。在新冠肺炎疫情的困难时期前，每年有近100万加拿大公民来华。既然有近100万加拿大公民都不担心自身安全，你又有什么可担心的呢？关于北京冬奥会，加拿大是冰雪运动强国，我很高兴看到中加正在探讨就此开展合作。关于你提到的抵制北京冬奥会，事实上我并没有听到太多类似的言论。杂音总是会有的，但我认为这并不代表国际社会的主流。我认为这也不符合所有其他国家的利益。
万德山：为什么不抵制呢？
陆慷：为什么抵制呢？你应该给我一个抵制北京冬奥会的理由。
万德山：我的意思是，如果人们感到自身安全受到威胁，或者中国正在以他们无法认同的方式行事，人们就应以抵制冬奥会作为回应。
陆慷：每个国家总有其他国家不喜欢的方面。在疫情发生前，每年不仅有近100万加拿大公民来华，你知道还有多少其他人来华吗？在中美之间，每天有超过1.5万人往返于太平洋两岸。他们为什么就不担心呢？仅仅是个别政客在鼓噪。希望媒体不要只把注意力放在他们身上。
万德山：今年早些时候，一些中国外交官，尤其是在欧洲工作的，发表了措辞强硬的声明。这些声明有时招致驻在国的批评。有很多关于中国“战狼外交”的议论。但在过去几个月中，我们并未看到太多这种情况。王毅国务委员刚刚访问欧洲，我们注意到中国似乎正试图同其他国家保持更加缓和的关系。请问“战狼外交”是错误的政策吗？
陆慷：我不知道你为什么用这种方式来描述。正如我刚才所讲，中国外交的目标是为中国同其他国家交往营造友善环境。但一旦涉及中方核心利益，比如中国主权、领土完整等，中国有权坚定发声，维护自身合法正当权益。我认为加拿大或其他国家也会这么做。
万德山：但是“坚定发声”有不同的方式。以一种可能被其他国家视作侮辱的方式“坚定发声”，你认为这是不是错误的政策？
陆慷：请你举个例子，说明中国外交官试图侮辱驻在国或者驻在国人民？
万德山：在法国，中国外交官针对法国应对疫情的方式发表评论，给人的感觉是有关评论侮辱了法国所采取的措施。
陆慷：你能不能说得再具体一些？
万德山：我认为是关于法国抛弃了老年人的评论。
陆慷：如果我没有记错的话，有一件事情。中国外交官发表了一份声明，一些法国人认为其中有个单词使用得不恰当。我认为其中包含对这个单词的解释，且是由于翻译的原因（导致了误解）。这对中国外交官是非常不公平的，我们不仅在国外，即使在中国国内，在会见我们的同行，或者是像你这样的外国记者，也总是不得不讲外语。
万德山：的确如此，我对此十分感激。
陆慷：但是你的汉语说得很流利。
万德山：你的英语说得很流利。包括加拿大在内的很多国家都在讨论拓展民主国家联盟，美国和澳大利亚还提及民主国家之间应建立更强纽带，日本在考虑加入“五眼联盟”。你是否认为这是由中国的政策引起的？比如，常设仲裁法院认定中国在南海的活动违反国际法。中国的政策是否导致其他国家更加抱团？
陆慷：显然是美国的政策，而不是中国的政策想导致这些情况。我刚才谈到，中国坚守在所有多边框架内的承诺，坚定维护《联合国宪章》宗旨和原则。你提到的所谓“仲裁”，只有不到20个国家认为这是国际仲裁。然而事实上，这从一开始就不是。这个仲裁庭是在现有国际机制之外设立的，其运行资金是由当时某政府提供的。这绝不是什么国际仲裁。你不能只看一些支持所谓“仲裁”的国家，却看不到其他70多个国家支持中方。我认为这是不公平的。至于中方是否担心美国采取的一些行动会导致中国被孤立。首先，我们并不认同这些行动。中方仍然认为当今世界应聚焦合作和彼此开放。但我们也不害怕，正如我所说，我们坚信过去40多年探索出的发展道路是成功的，这不仅是对中国自身发展而言，对中国同外部世界的合作也是如此。第二，我并不认为这些行动会得到国际社会多数成员的支持，甚至美国的盟友也不都支持，就连华盛顿的一些政客也认识到其中一些倡议没有得到美国自己盟友的支持，不管这些盟友是在亚洲还是欧洲。
万德山：你应该听过在欧洲有“系统性风险”这个词。现在加拿大和其他国家都在审视本国对华政策。当然，他们讨论的一些文件来自于其他国家。你怎么看“系统性风险”这个概念？关于中国模式，中方曾表示我们找到了一种模式，这种模式也许在其他国家也能行得通。
陆慷：我们什么时候这样说过？我们什么时候说过我们找到了一个模式而你们应该效仿？
万德山：不是应该效仿。我理解的意思是，中国有一种模式，并被展示为一种潜在的成功模式，即以发展为中心、以基础设施建设为中心，等等。
陆慷：你对中国如此熟悉，这不应该是你对中国政策的理解方式。我们始终认为，我们探索出的发展模式当然在中国取得了成功，但是我们从没有说过这也必然适用于其他任何国家，不论其国家大小，不论是发达国家还是发展中国家。我们没有这样说过。因为我们始终认为，每个国家都有其自身的历史背景和国情，各国都应该寻找更符合自身国情的发展模式。我们从没说过，任何国家都应该照搬你所说的中国模式。
万德山：中国对其他国家来说是“系统性风险”吗？
陆慷：我们不这么认为。如我所说，你提到的所谓中国同其他国家间的矛盾和问题，在所有国家间都可能发生。当然，我们始终愿意倾听伙伴的意见，包括他们的关切、担忧、问题以及对双方探讨开展更多合作的想法。我们始终鼓励开展更多合作，提倡以更好的、更有效的方式处理困难和争端。我们从不认为，事情会发展成你提到的所谓“系统性风险”。
万德山：跟大多数民主国家一样，加拿大有一个反对党（保守党）最近刚刚选举产生了新任党领袖。这位党领袖主张加拿大应该改变对华政策，采取强硬立场。他将中国的政治制度称之为对加拿大利益的一个“威胁”，要求加拿大以更加直接的方式在国际组织等方面支持台湾，提议加拿大对中国公民以及从事敏感研究的中国学者实施更多审查，禁止华为参与5G网络建设，寻求同中国部分脱钩。鉴于过去两年来中国对加拿大所采取的相当有敌意的立场，我想很多加拿大人会说，为什么加拿大不对中国采取更具敌意的政策？
陆慷：我认为，对所有政治人物来说，把其选民的真正利益记在心里是十分重要的。人们总是听到政治人物到处发表公开讲话，但对加拿大人民和其他国家人民来说，更重要的是，他们的政府应根据他们的利益来决定采取什么样的政策。我非常相信，所有政治人物对其选民的真实愿望和真正利益所在都有自己的辨别力。比如，关于你提到的加拿大政治人物，他们对中国的政治制度有不同看法。我想指出的是，50年前加政府决定同中国建立外交关系时，他们就知道中国实行什么样的政治制度，这一政治制度没有发生改变。所以，中加政治制度的不同并没有阻碍两国人民沟通，没有阻碍两国商界开展共赢合作，更没有阻碍历届加政府同中方在国际舞台上就双方具有共同利益的问题开展合作，比如应对气候变化、联合国维和等。那么，现在为什么要改变？就中方而言，我们无意这样做。当然，这需要由加拿大人民来决定，他们所选举产生的政治人物是否应该改变这些？
万德山：如果一届新的加拿大政府决定改变对华政策，这会导致哪些后果？
陆慷：首先，我们仍然愿意同加方探讨拓展合作，以造福两国人民。当然，这需要合适的氛围，加方仍然要妥善处理孟晚舟事件。其次，中方一贯认为，在涉及自身核心利益的问题上，同其他所有国家一样，中方有权维护自身权益。
万德山：谈到后果，我想再回到之前的一个问题。如果加拿大最终将孟晚舟引渡至美国，我这么说是因为从历史数据看这很可能发生，中方是否会对加拿大采取更多措施？
陆慷：既然你重复了你的问题，我也愿重复我的回答。实际上，我不会预断任何事，但我们真不愿意看到发生那样的情况。
万德山：我不知道你会不会回答，但我还是提出下一个个问题。北京和华盛顿特别是白宫之间，发生了许多摩擦，尤其是在过去六个月。中国是否认为，如果拜登当选下届美国总统，中国会同一位更加理智的总统打交道？
陆慷：我和接替我的外交部发言人都曾多次表示，我们对美国的内部事务尤其是总统大选没有兴趣。我们强烈相信，无论是拜登还是特朗普当选，他们都应基于对美国民众真正利益的判断来规划他们的政策。如果真是这样的话，我们希望无论谁入主椭圆形办公室，将会奉行有助于中美继续在两国人民之间开展双赢合作的政策。
万德山：我们讨论了康明凯、迈克尔。还有四名加拿大公民在过去两年被中方判处死刑。
陆慷：是因为毒品犯罪吧？
万德山：是的，是关于毒品的指控。我的意思是，其中一些案件以不同寻常的方式进行宣传。其中一起案件，当事人被判处死刑时，外媒被邀请旁听宣判，这在中国并不常见。在另一起案件中，关于死刑的判决由中国媒体公之于众。中国是否有意将判处加拿大公民死刑作为政治争端的一部分？
陆慷：这不是政治事件。你十分了解中国，应该知道毒品犯罪是非常严重的罪行。毒品还曾经给中国人民留下痛苦回忆。毒品犯罪不仅是中国司法机关依据中国法律体系严格处理的，也是中国民众广泛关注的。关于死刑，不同国家有不同的法律体系，对死刑也有不同的政策。包括中国在内的一些国家保留死刑，同时遵照国际人权公约严格适用死刑。这一点没有问题。不同国家有不同的优先事项，不同民众对死刑也有不同的看法。尊重其他国家的司法体系和司法主权是十分重要的。
万德山：最后一个问题。你认为加拿大人应该怎么看待中国？你希望加拿大人民对中国有怎样的印象或观点？
陆慷：在你的帮助下，在加拿大媒体帮助下，我希望加拿大民众能够认识一个真实的中国，对中国有一个完整的认知。过去40年，中国取得飞速的发展，这是事实。但中国仍是一个发展中国家，这也是事实。我们并不完美。我们对自己取得的成就感到自豪，但我们知道我们还面临很多挑战。正如习近平主席所说，中国将对内致力于深化改革，但改革正在啃硬骨头的时候，会面临很多挑战，甚至有时候会付出代价。但总的看，今天的中国已不再是40年前的中国。今天的中国已从对外开放和合作中获益良多。我们将继续致力于这么做。坦率地讲，我们希望所有加拿大人看待中国时不要再受西方政客给中国贴标签的影响。
万德山：你指的是（把中国视作）威胁？
陆慷：这是一种情况。现在那些华盛顿的政客在几乎所有领域试图攻击中国，因为他们试图挑起意识形态对抗，他们不认同中国的政治制度。我想请你告诉加拿大民众：中国在过去40年取得的发展成就，中国在过去40年同国际社会保持朋友和伙伴关系，就是中国领导人在本国政治制度框架下领导我们实现的。所以，中国的政治制度并不是问题。现在，中国仍然愿意同国际伙伴开展合作。同时，我想对那些真正希望了解中国的人说，中国随时欢迎他们来中国走一走、亲眼看一看。
万德山：谢谢你接受我的专访。
陆慷：谢谢。
点击进入专题：
孟晚舟引渡案https://news.sina.com.cn/c/2020-09-05/doc-iivhuipp2613921.shtml
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